Superbike Rules

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Superbike Rules

Post  gsaltus on Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:33 pm

250s Should not be in with the 600s unless allowed to be kit up or racings versions allowed. No production base 250 is going to be able beat a street legal 600 regardless of the rider. Its simple math really, all the classes round the world have a 2 to1 ratio. Twice the two-stroke cc for the four-strokes. The GP125 rules have this ratio and the rest of class need to follow. (GP125: up to 125cc single cylinder 2-stroke or 250cc 4-stroke) Lets not complicate the rest of the classes and use this ratio though out.

I know there's also issue with number of cylinders. In AMA and WorldSBK Twins have higher cc's than 4-cylinders due to the increased power the extra cylinders help to produce. If we use this in conjuction with the 2 to 1 ratio the two-stroke twin equavilent would be a 400cc bike.

Of course this is how I feel and yes I'm not planning to race in this class this year but I do want to see a good race. One set of principles should apply to all classes.

I am looking forward to this season.
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  -cy- on Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:34 pm

Again glad to see the feedback... Your throught process is great along the lines of equal competition and the fact that regulations are based on number of cylinders, two-stroke or fourstroke, etc. With the Formula and Superbike class being merged regulations have to be reviewed on that basis... The meeting is wednesday and these points are valid and sould be addressed. I've reviewed a couple of US Racing Series and the average regulation on such a street-production based classification is follows:

MIDDLEWEIGHT GRAND PRIX (Amateur & Expert Divisions)
Single cylinder, Unlimited displacement
Two stroke, liquid cooled, pre-1985 model year, up to 750cc
Two stroke, liquid cooled, street production models, up to 515cc
Two stroke, air cooled, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, air-cooled, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, 2 or 3 valves per cylinder, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, 4 valve per cylinder, up to 850cc
Three cylinder, up to 1000cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 650cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, 2 valve, up to 1200cc

As it shows here... the two stroke twins can be up to 515cc to compete against the inline 4 -600 cc production bikes (emphasing that all models are production models of bikes which had more then 1000 units produced) which are generally speaking allowed displacement up to 650cc (but can not be altered from orginial production cc as stated in the rules books of associations such as WERA and CCS).

On that note.. the 250cc production bikes such as the Aprilia RS250 and the NSR250 are allowed to be modified... There are no restrictions on modifying the bikes with respect to upgrades to performance parts. The concept of a CC increase is a valid argument based on international regulations.

What are your views of this outlay?
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  gsaltus on Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:37 am

That sounds good our rules should reflect what other racing organizations are using. We have to remeber that its a spectators sport as well and we should have even play field for everyone. I enjoy watching the underdog, it makes for a good show.
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Displacment

Post  RWade on Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:43 pm

gsaltus wrote:250s Should not be in with the 600s unless allowed to be kit up or racings versions allowed. No production base 250 is going to be able beat a street legal 600 regardless of the rider. Its simple math really,
I am looking forward to this season.

I agree with the comment no production based 250cc 2 stroke will be able to do anything against a 600. If so a full blown gp rs 250 should be allowed in the class i think that would be fare in comparison as they where going to replace the 250 gp class with 600cc inline bikes anyway. (idea was postponed till passed 2010 i think)

Another option is two run the two classes together but have to seperate scoring systems. Rule book is lookin sloppy why is it sayin no slicks allowed for mostly all the classes i do not understand this. But then in one section is says racing tires must be used i consider slicks (cut slicks) to be all the same thing just there is more contact area. It all depends on the rider on which he must use but im guesing all of these thigns will be cleared up wednesday.
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  -cy- on Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:04 am

I agree with the comment no production based 250cc 2 stroke will be able to do anything against a 600. If so a full blown gp rs 250 should be allowed in the class i think that would be fare in comparison as they where going to replace the 250 gp class with 600cc inline bikes anyway. (idea was postponed till passed 2010 i think)

Another option is two run the two classes together but have to seperate scoring systems. Rule book is lookin sloppy why is it sayin no slicks allowed for mostly all the classes i do not understand this. But then in one section is says racing tires must be used i consider slicks (cut slicks) to be all the same thing just there is more contact area. It all depends on the rider on which he must use but im guesing all of these thigns will be cleared up wednesday.


In response to your first statement you are correct... a 250cc 2-stroke street production bike will not be able to compete evenually with a 600inline 4 four-stroke motorcycle. This has been revisited with respect to the merger of the classes and the above restrictions will be put forth to both the committee and the club members on wednedays meeting. A GP (grand prix) machine would not be allowed in such a class as both the formula class and the superbike class are based on "Street Production" machines only (feel free to review international rules in wera or ccs).

With respect to the slicks.. the superbike classification WILL be using slicks. Which other classifications are you referring to that are limited to not using slicks (no tread tires) that you believe should be allowed?

On the subject of the merger of the two classifications; The formula classification and the superbike classification have been merged on the basis that there are not and have not been enough participants in the formula class. There needs to be a minimum of 5 registered riders for there to be a classification. Upon merging the classes the rules have not been extensively visited hence a discussion of the rulebook by members on Wednesday. The regulations above will be put forward for the members review.
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  supermoto_chris on Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:13 am

Ok, well what about the other bikes in the formula class that are not street production, as in my supermoto Very Happy ? A modified 450 four stroke. And i believe Paul D. bought in a 520. Where would we fall??

Also, the 600 class is like the elite class. Mixing the formula class in there may take away from their racing. What you Think??
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  RWade on Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:25 am

560 ktm i think not exactly sure chris. So u got the 450 finally turn her sideways bra drop two gears and let that clutch out. put ya knee out like ruben xaus and let her rip
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  supermoto_chris on Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:30 am

Ya, he got a 5 sumthin! lol
Should be here in 2 or 3 weeks, YZF450 with all the goodies. Race motor and suspension. Can't wait to lay her over!!!
Was all hyped up to get a CRF450 that i was eyeing up, but then this great deal came through!!
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  gsaltus on Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:53 am

supermoto_chris wrote:Ok, well what about the other bikes in the formula class that are not street production, as in my supermoto Very Happy ? A modified 450 four stroke. And i believe Paul D. bought in a 520. Where would we fall??

Also, the 600 class is like the elite class. Mixing the formula class in there may take away from their racing. What you Think??

Well I guess if they keep the formula class in with the 600s they would denefitly have to be upgraded. Those class options Cy had posted had some good ideas.
Single cylinder, Unlimited displacement - ( I'm asuming that goes for 2-stroke as well as 4-stroke)
Twin cylinder, air-cooled, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, 2 or 3 valves per cylinder, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, 4 valve per cylinder, up to 850cc

Of course to be realistic these changes should be made next season to give people time to adjust to the rule change. This is not a good time to be debating the rules. This should have been done at the end of last season. For this season the formula class should remain and changes go forward to next year. Same for other classes.
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  -cy- on Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:43 am

gsaltus wrote:Of course to be realistic these changes should be made next season to give people time to adjust to the rule change. This is not a good time to be debating the rules. This should have been done at the end of last season. For this season the formula class should remain and changes go forward to next year. Same for other classes.

Agreeable in the event that there are sufficient riders to have a "Formula Class"... i.e. Five (5) Registered Riders... In the event that there are not 5 registered riders there can not legitimitely be a Formula Class.

As stated in another post as well... the timeline of rules will be change with respect to rule change suggestions going forward. i.e. Rules for the 2009 season will be confirmed before the end of the 2008 season.
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  -cy- on Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:17 pm

supermoto_chris wrote:Ok, well what about the other bikes in the formula class that are not street production, as in my supermoto Very Happy ? A modified 450 four stroke. And i believe Paul D. bought in a 520. Where would we fall??

Also, the 600 class is like the elite class. Mixing the formula class in there may take away from their racing. What you Think??

Hey Chris... with respect to the supermoto style bikes they would fall within formula generally speaking with the option of racing in superbike if the two classes were split. Wording such restrictions that limit certain bikes to certain classficiations is always tricky. When stating "street production" the general concept is to not allow machines that a built specifically for "grand prix" racing. i.e. GP125 or GP250 machinery or purpose built 600cc machines for grandprix racing.

All in all classes are designed to put bikes together which are deemed competitive in nature (give or take). Supermoto being newly introduced generally fulls within such classes were multiple styles of motorcycles are put such as the formula classification.

Paul has a KTM 560 and i've heard it is very quick. With a proper rider the super motard riders should feel very competitive against the 600cc motorcycles given a lighterweight chasis and torque produced by the 450F - 560cc singles and/or twins. Look forward to hearing your new 450F roar!
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  supermoto_chris on Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:27 pm

Guess well have to see what kind of lap times the supermoto's are doing in respect to the 600's through the season to get a better idea of how close they are in overall speed, seeing as how this change would be implemented next year.

Hey!! I just realized something!! Paul has a Supermoto and a 600, and if he wanted to race both classes, he couldn't! Hope that don't happen. I'm looking forward to battling another Supermoto Exclamation
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  Squirrel on Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:33 am

better watch out i don't have a ride this year and i have ridden the 550 vtwin aprilia and oh boy do i know how to slide that lil puppy into a corner hahahahhaha Twisted Evil
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  RWade on Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:57 am

Squirrel wrote:better watch out i don't have a ride this year and i have ridden the 550 vtwin aprilia and oh boy do i know how to slide that lil puppy into a corner hahahahhaha Twisted Evil


Dont have a ride wat u talkin bout?
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  gsaltus on Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:43 am

After last nights meeting I thought more on these new rules and the old ones that I could remeber. I realized that the formula class fills the gap between stockmodified and superbike. Those who have supermoto bikes need a proper class to compete in. Sure it was state last night that you should bring the equipment that works down the track, but there are more scramblers on the island than GP bikes. Its easy to convert one to supermoto. The formula Class is perfect for them and on the flip side the class will be more exciting. Have a mix of different machine is fun to watch and at the same time challenges riders. The formula class needs to stay plain and simple.
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Re: Superbike Rules

Post  supermoto_chris on Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:36 pm

I agree 100%, but it's just a numbers thing. You would think that with all these scramblers on the island, there would be more supermoto's out racing, but it seems hard to get solid numers at the track every weekend raceday. Even i had bike issues last year and missed races. I spoke to Daniels and he said the only time Formula class doesn't have sufficent numbers (5) to fill the class for a particular raceday, then formula will be bunched with the 600's. So if we have a consistent group every race (cross ya fingers!!), formula will be seperate. At first i thought we were permantly with the 600's, but he clarified to me that it's only the case with insufficent riders.

Man!!................................i just wanna ride Cool
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Throwin out another bone.......

Post  #8 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:01 pm

So yeah guys, I'm not there right now, doin my thing out here in the states getting some tech papers and can't wait to get back racing......speakin of which, I got a new toy out here that I'm bringin back......it's a 1985 CR500......yeah, keeping it real with a 2 stroke!!!! SO, what class you all gonna throw me in NOW!

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